Congress likes fuel-cell cars; Toyota says they could even be cheap
STEP ASIDE, SKEPTICS: The author investigates fuel cells in chilly (and financially strapped) Iceland.
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Comments(17)
Posted By jimwhenry - Thu, Jul 30 2009 at 12:58 AM ESTcash for clunkers
Yes, Your vehicle must be less than 25 years old on the trade-in date
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Posted By Chris H. - Wed, Jul 29 2009 at 12:43 PM ESTDon't be Fueled Again
I'm sorry to break the news to the commenters here, but hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are a red herring promoted by the fossil fuel lobby. Even if the cost of producing a H2FCV can be lowered to a reasonable level, and the durability of FCs can be improved, there's still the issue of the cost of the hydrogen (more expensive than gasoline), and the energy efficiency of hydrogen as an energy carrier.
Where does hydrogen come from? Most commercially available H2 comes from natural gas (a.... More
Posted By Ingrid - Thu, Jul 30 2009 at 9:47 AM ESTHydrogen is an enabler for MORE RENEWABLES
COST: You know, even with today's technology, hydrogen can be dispensed at volume at a fueling pump for about the same price as gasoline. And if you include sources like making hydrogen from water using wind electricity, it's not too much more and the costs are coming down even further. That's not something you can say for either gasoline or natural gas costs:
.... More
Posted By LizR - Wed, Jul 29 2009 at 6:31 PM ESTElectric Vehicles are best
We need all kinds of EVs -- fuel cells, batteries and plug-in hybrids -- to get away from fossil fuels. The big oil companies don't see much future in H2 or electricity. The big players in electricity are the utility companies, trading one monopoly for another. The big players in H2 are industrial gas companies, businesses that have agricultural waste and small start-ups.
"If you choose to do the research, and crunch the numbers, you will find that an electric vehicle will travel about.... More
Posted By Chris H. - Thu, Jul 30 2009 at 2:58 AM ESTShell out
If you want to know who's behind the push towards H2 powered vehicles, click the link.
http://www.shell.com/home/content/aboutshell/our_business/oil_products/f...
Posted By Chris H. - Thu, Jul 30 2009 at 2:47 AM ESTNot So Fast
Electric vehicles and H2FCVs do not have the same efficiency. H2FCVs have an efficiency of about 17%-22%. In contrast EVs are 80%-90% efficient.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell_vehicle#Efficiency
.... More
Posted By Patrick from NHA - Thu, Jul 30 2009 at 8:12 AM ESTWatch out: 'Not so fast tried' to pull a "fast one"
Whoa! Wikipedia sources for vehicle efficiency? I don't think so. Those numbers are so off, I'm not sure where to start.
Here are the real efficiency numbers straight from an automaker who's developing all kinds of alternative vehicles: Toyota. This was presented at a professional conference of automobile engineers, SAE World Congress. And they take into account the WHOLE process so you're comparing apples to apples:
"Justin Ward said that Toyota sees market opportunity.... More
Posted By Chris H. - Thu, Jul 30 2009 at 3:51 PM ESTFuel me once, shame on....you, fuel me twice, shame on... You ca
Well, Patrick (Serfass?), in the interests of full disclosure, perhaps you could tell us just what the "NHA" is, and what it's affiliation with Shell Hydrogen is (including any financial support). You may also want to mention your relationships with Chevron, GM, Toyota, Honda, and the American Coalition for Clean Coal Electricity. Btw, was it the link to the Shell Hydrogen site that triggered your response?
To get back to the numbers: I stand by the efficiency numbers I reported above..... More
Posted By J.M. - Fri, Nov 13 2009 at 2:47 PM ESTHow about putting in ALL of the numbers...
In both FCVs and BEVs, the biggest inefficiency comes in converting the chemical energy to electrical. A fuel cell system vehicle has an efficiency over 50%, a natural gas or coal power plant is under 50%. Before talking about how efficient a BEV is, maybe you should look at the well-to-wheel numbers. Otherwise, you just come off as another person hiding the truth to prove a point. The energy to compress hydrogen is no more than the losses in the transmission system. The efficiency of.... More
Posted By J.M. - Fri, Nov 13 2009 at 2:46 PM ESTHow about putting in ALL of the numbers...
In both FCVs and BEVs, the biggest inefficiency comes in converting the chemical energy to electrical. A fuel cell system vehicle has an efficiency over 50%, a natural gas or coal power plant is under 50%. Before talking about how efficient a BEV is, maybe you should look at the well-to-wheel numbers. Otherwise, you just come off as another person hiding the truth to prove a point. The energy to compress hydrogen is no more than the losses in the transmission system. The efficiency of.... More
Posted By Betty Ford - Tue, Jul 28 2009 at 7:08 PM ESTfollow where the leaders are heading
Sounds like most of the leading auto companies believe in hydrogen fuel cells, acknowledging that any quest to quit the oil dependency will be difficult (whatever option(s) we use to get there). If aggressive, successful and forward thinking companies are moving in that direction I will place my bets on them.
Or I could believe the former govt hydrogen lead under Clinton who know tries blaming Bush. He is now know as a blogger, that's almost as credible as being on the Simpsons.
Posted By Sandy - Tue, Jul 28 2009 at 4:43 PM ESTFuel cell electric vehicle cost..
...will be quite affordable in mass production. In an extensive techno/economic analysis, Kromer & Heywood at MIT concluded that fuel cell electric vehicles with 350 miles range would cost only $3,600 more than gasoline cars in mass production. By contrast, plug-in hybrids with 30 miles all-electric range are projected to cost $4,300 more in mass production, and all-electric battery vehicles with only 200 miles range are estimated to cost $10,200 more. [ref: Kromer & Heywood,.... More
Posted By Doc Watts - Tue, Jul 28 2009 at 4:42 PM ESTA fumble now could cost us a lot.
The US automakers lost out on hybrids, by not following through on battery technologies from the '90s. Momof2 is right, the US automakers need to follow through on fuel cells now, or risk another set of losses in the marketplace when they are slow to deliver on the best technology available in its own time. First to market means a lot. Last to market means a lot lost.
Posted By Anonymous - Tue, Jul 28 2009 at 4:41 PM ESTWindow of Opportunity
Jim, I appreciate your update on the progress of the hydrogen fuel cell car development. This is, indeed, a pivotal time in our automotive history when it is apparent that present systems will not work and that we need to use this window of opportunity to work with leaders in Congress and automotive companies like Toyota while supporting transitional initiatives by GM, Ford and Chrysler to capitalize on the many advantages of hydrogen fuel cell technology that can improve our environment,.... More
Posted By Momof2 - Tue, Jul 28 2009 at 4:21 PM ESTIf Toyota is optimistic....
...then there must be money to be made here....I'd like to see the big 3 follow this...let's try some innovation.
Posted By Patrick from NHA - Tue, Jul 28 2009 at 4:07 PM ESTGreat piece!
Excellent piece Jim. You've wrapped up the current situation very realistically. What's critically important is that we continue to build on all the great successes so far by continuing to fund further innovation, and we do so in TANDEM with other complementary alternative vehicle technologies.
Fuel Cells are the best way to go
At most, fuel cell cars are leased for $600/month for 3 years from Honda if you live in the right part of the country. At best, don't be surprised if some are sold soon in the $30k or less range. These numbers are better than the numbers
you get for battery electric cars and these fuel cell cars can go hundreds, not tens of miles, on compressed hydrogen gas. They refuel in minutes, not hours.
Fuel cell cars can handle really cold temperatures of 35 below fahrenheit.
All.... More